There are some things I agree with here, but two main things that I believe deserve further reflection:
1. When you say "factors" that you and your husband have, I think those should be called what they are: privileges. Most people in the US do not have these same privileges. And even if you think you made the correct choices in life to, say, live in an affordable area, that's still a privilege. Plenty of folks want to live in an affordable area, but moving costs, discrimination affecting everything from finding housing to getting a job, having to care for family members who can't afford in-home health etc. are just some examples of how the system benefits some, but not most.
2. "women's choices" are absolutely conditioned by sexism. Study after study shows this. Women are seen negatively for exhibiting behaviors that would be praised by a man and this absolutely affects their trajectory. Women are often asked and expected to do more work than what's in their job description and are not fairly compensated for it. Women in many instances *are* flat-out paid less than their male coworkers. The fact that women are expected to step back and take care of families and simply not make as much money later on if they choose to reenter the workforce shows how little value is placed on women in the workforce to begin with, something you yourself alluded to in this post.
No amount of energy should be spent putting some of the onus on women to justify why they're not getting paid as much as men. That energy should be appropriately distributed to the patriarchal systems that expect women to be caretakers both in and out of the workforce, all while not receiving commensurate (if any) pay.
I struggle with the word "privilege" because it's not often applied in a way I agree with. I get that we have advantages, which is why I tried to highlight them. We *all* have various privileges that help us in certain ways. And the studies I've seen haven't reflected that it's as black and white as you seem to believe. I agree that flat-out sexism certainly accounts for PART of the pay gap, which I said in this post. But "study after study", that *I've* seen, does not show that women are "flat-out" paid for the same exact work. That's almost impossible to measure. You certainly can't measure *why* a woman is paid less in any effective way. Also, women are sometimes "expected" to step back and take care of the family--but many, many choose to. Is that nature or nurture? Why do they choose that? Is it inherent in some women's personalities, or do they feel pressure from society? Surely some of both. I'm not even saying I disagree with you, I'm just saying that we try so hard to make these issues seem very obvious and concrete when they're just not.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this! I am curious what you think of the argument that traits such as agreeableness can also be conditioned and learned? As a woman of color, I have had to act agreeable out of personal safety. Asking for and negotiating for what we need may not always be possible, especially when power dynamics are at play and professional coaching may not always be accessible. I can see how many instances that contribute to the pay gap may be individual personal choices, but it’s possible that those choices can also be due to a larger pattern. Why do women make these choices (or feel like they need to?)
Mmm, that's such an interesting question. I totally agree--it's got to be part personal choices, but those personal choices can be really impacted by the circumstances surrounding you. I'm not sure what the solution is. Making more career resources accessible to people with less finances seems like a great step to me!
Absolutely! I would love to see women feel more empowered to make these choices and have access to the necessary resources, rather than feeling like they have to settle for the least bad option.
I think there's a distinction though, between what's independent nature and what's inherent but reinforced. Sure, some children of any gender are going to be naturally more agreeable, some may have quicker tempers, etc. But as women and girls move through life, their more agreeable traits will be positively reinforced whereas assertiveness is more likely to be looked at negatively. This means that by the time they are in the workforce, there is ingrained messaging about what will cause people to react positively versus negatively, and that contributes to women being less likely to ask for raises, speak up about pay discrepancies, etc. Even in college classes, I experienced male peers who displayed this kind of sexism...many of them are now potentially in positions where they get to make hiring and salary decisions. I also think there's a distinction between being a more "agreeable" or "laid back" person in life in general and the structural ways that women are expected to display those traits in the workplace and at school. (And a whole other discussion about how our economic culture prizes competition over empathy)
One thing I've been very interested in this year with all of the COVID19 disruptions to childcare and schools is the value placed on care work and how that impacts the wages of women. Most care work careers are female-dominated and the wages paid for them are often below what someone with commensurate education could earn elsewhere. As a teacher, I've often heard comments like "I hope your husband has a good job" or assumptions that I'll quit as soon as I have kids (with the implication being that this was never seen as a serious/breadwinning career for me). This year, I've had several colleagues in education and childcare leave the profession to stay home with their own children not because they want to, but because they will always make less than their spouse brings in. If there's an attitude that women (or anyone) brought this on themselves by choosing those careers, it shrugs off the very real issues of sexism surrounding our associations as a society with care work, as well as disincentivizing people from working in those fields, which then loops back to a lack of affordable childcare, etc. that makes it even harder for women to participate in the workforce at the same level as men.
There are some things I agree with here, but two main things that I believe deserve further reflection:
1. When you say "factors" that you and your husband have, I think those should be called what they are: privileges. Most people in the US do not have these same privileges. And even if you think you made the correct choices in life to, say, live in an affordable area, that's still a privilege. Plenty of folks want to live in an affordable area, but moving costs, discrimination affecting everything from finding housing to getting a job, having to care for family members who can't afford in-home health etc. are just some examples of how the system benefits some, but not most.
2. "women's choices" are absolutely conditioned by sexism. Study after study shows this. Women are seen negatively for exhibiting behaviors that would be praised by a man and this absolutely affects their trajectory. Women are often asked and expected to do more work than what's in their job description and are not fairly compensated for it. Women in many instances *are* flat-out paid less than their male coworkers. The fact that women are expected to step back and take care of families and simply not make as much money later on if they choose to reenter the workforce shows how little value is placed on women in the workforce to begin with, something you yourself alluded to in this post.
No amount of energy should be spent putting some of the onus on women to justify why they're not getting paid as much as men. That energy should be appropriately distributed to the patriarchal systems that expect women to be caretakers both in and out of the workforce, all while not receiving commensurate (if any) pay.
I struggle with the word "privilege" because it's not often applied in a way I agree with. I get that we have advantages, which is why I tried to highlight them. We *all* have various privileges that help us in certain ways. And the studies I've seen haven't reflected that it's as black and white as you seem to believe. I agree that flat-out sexism certainly accounts for PART of the pay gap, which I said in this post. But "study after study", that *I've* seen, does not show that women are "flat-out" paid for the same exact work. That's almost impossible to measure. You certainly can't measure *why* a woman is paid less in any effective way. Also, women are sometimes "expected" to step back and take care of the family--but many, many choose to. Is that nature or nurture? Why do they choose that? Is it inherent in some women's personalities, or do they feel pressure from society? Surely some of both. I'm not even saying I disagree with you, I'm just saying that we try so hard to make these issues seem very obvious and concrete when they're just not.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this! I am curious what you think of the argument that traits such as agreeableness can also be conditioned and learned? As a woman of color, I have had to act agreeable out of personal safety. Asking for and negotiating for what we need may not always be possible, especially when power dynamics are at play and professional coaching may not always be accessible. I can see how many instances that contribute to the pay gap may be individual personal choices, but it’s possible that those choices can also be due to a larger pattern. Why do women make these choices (or feel like they need to?)
Always love reading this newsletter!
Mmm, that's such an interesting question. I totally agree--it's got to be part personal choices, but those personal choices can be really impacted by the circumstances surrounding you. I'm not sure what the solution is. Making more career resources accessible to people with less finances seems like a great step to me!
Absolutely! I would love to see women feel more empowered to make these choices and have access to the necessary resources, rather than feeling like they have to settle for the least bad option.
Oh if only Jesus knew about the gender pay gap...
Hmmm. Women are socialized to be agreeable, which is a more insidious factor of sexism definitely at play here.
I'd say it's probably party socialization and partly a personality trait. Nature vs. nurture is just a hard thing to measure.
I think there's a distinction though, between what's independent nature and what's inherent but reinforced. Sure, some children of any gender are going to be naturally more agreeable, some may have quicker tempers, etc. But as women and girls move through life, their more agreeable traits will be positively reinforced whereas assertiveness is more likely to be looked at negatively. This means that by the time they are in the workforce, there is ingrained messaging about what will cause people to react positively versus negatively, and that contributes to women being less likely to ask for raises, speak up about pay discrepancies, etc. Even in college classes, I experienced male peers who displayed this kind of sexism...many of them are now potentially in positions where they get to make hiring and salary decisions. I also think there's a distinction between being a more "agreeable" or "laid back" person in life in general and the structural ways that women are expected to display those traits in the workplace and at school. (And a whole other discussion about how our economic culture prizes competition over empathy)
One thing I've been very interested in this year with all of the COVID19 disruptions to childcare and schools is the value placed on care work and how that impacts the wages of women. Most care work careers are female-dominated and the wages paid for them are often below what someone with commensurate education could earn elsewhere. As a teacher, I've often heard comments like "I hope your husband has a good job" or assumptions that I'll quit as soon as I have kids (with the implication being that this was never seen as a serious/breadwinning career for me). This year, I've had several colleagues in education and childcare leave the profession to stay home with their own children not because they want to, but because they will always make less than their spouse brings in. If there's an attitude that women (or anyone) brought this on themselves by choosing those careers, it shrugs off the very real issues of sexism surrounding our associations as a society with care work, as well as disincentivizing people from working in those fields, which then loops back to a lack of affordable childcare, etc. that makes it even harder for women to participate in the workforce at the same level as men.